Tracy Dix
You are listening to the Wyrd Learning podcast with your hosts, Dr. Tracy Dix and Dr. Alex Patel, featuring special guests Jenny Prescott. Today's episode, the reflective healthcare practitioner, how reflection can change your life. Hello, everyone. Today, we are really excited because we have a special guest on our podcast, Jenny Prescott, who I met at the University of Warwick pulled down society many, many years ago. Was it about 10 years ago? Yeah. So yeah. And we've got Jenny here talking about reflective writing and the impact it's had on your life and your career in a nutshell. So, Jenny, it's a real pleasure to have you with us? And shall we start, first of all, by asking you a little bit more about what you do. And so you've been a midwife for quite some time, but you've moved around in lots of different areas. And maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that background,
Jenny Prescot
then, yeah, so I've been. So I've been a midwife about 13 years, plus my training period, when when you first finish your training period, you work kind of a little bit of everywhere. And during that time, I realized I did really like birth and labor care. So I spent quite a lot of my career on labor wards. We have to as midwives, you have to mentor new midwives. That's a routine thing. So again, when I did that, I realized I quite like teaching. So I did a little bit in education. And I had a few years out of the clinical areas in education instead. And then I went back to the clinical areas and back to labor ward, during the pandemic, which is probably poor timing on my path that actually really enjoyed. At the moment, I'm kind of 5050. So I do a role where I spend half my time running clinics for women. And then half my time in the office kind of doing project work and governance, emails, that kind of thing, because I've got a quite a nice balance between the two at the moment.
Tracy Dix
And I used to pull dancing. Yeah. So our listeners can't see this. But generally, I'm
Alexandra Patel
to paint a picture at this point, Tracy? Yeah,
Tracy Dix
no, I'm not exactly not what you think, I think well, so our listeners can't see this. But Jenny is about a month away from her due date. And she's expecting a baby boy, which is very exciting. Congratulations. So yeah, so Jenny's saying that you're still pulled dancing at the moment is a far more impressive accomplishment than you would expect, you know, just someone pulled on. So I thought I'd throw that in. So, okay, so thinking about what reflective writing was like for you as a student, it probably is quite a distant memory for you now, you know, since you've been like, kind of in professional roles for 13 years. But we're interested to hear your recollections of this process, because I think it will resonate a lot with many of our listeners.
Jenny Prescot
Me, I know if I do remember, uni, so we had a module that was, was it called, like the reflective practitioner, or had a really long name, to be fair, but the whole module was about learning to reflect. And I never really got it, I always got good marks in it. So that's always a bonus when you do an assignment and you think, oh, and I'll bulk up my, my grade. But I never completely got it. And I think partly, there was two reasons. One, I think naturally, it's something that I do. So it seemed very strange for someone to say, we're going to learn to do this thing that you'd like. But that's obvious that isn't everyone do that. Because to me, it just seemed very much trying to figure yourself out and figure out how to do something a bit better next time. So it was a little bit of that was just thinking like, okay, and then it was a little bit where, because it was at uni, and I feel like unique quite often is this a bit of a fake environment where you're asked to do things, but they're not. They're not how they would be in the real world. So a key one is like you, you have to do all your assignments on your own. You have to work on your own and in the real world. Nobody is working on their own because it's the worst way of working.
Alexandra Patel
You know, what's unusual of all that is that quite often students at university don't like group work. Or as you saying, we say to them, you know, you have to get good at this because in the real world, you're going to have to work with people you don't like, and people you do like as well.
Jenny Prescot
Again, it's like group work sounds different from just I think a colleague or a team, yeah, group work is no, well, we've got to get marks and our group work at uni as hard as well, because you've just got that person that's clinging on. And you're like, can I post in? Why am I doing all this? Like? And again, I guess that's kind of real world, because you're gonna get that colleagues, it's really just taking the mick a little bit. But yeah, so I think I think I struggled a little bit with it. Just from that, because it was an assignment brief. So someone else told you why you have to reflect, which is totally not real world, because actually, reflection is very much human driven, not someone else telling me reflect on that, then there was a mark on it, which is ridiculous as well, because someone's telling you, they're putting an objective mark on whether you can reflect, which is a very strange thing to do. Because actually reflection is is really an exploration process. And then you have to really be open and like, vulnerable and all of this stuff, but at the end zone goes, alright, you can afford it 2% For that, and you're like, wow, I bet my soul. So that's another thing where it's just, you know, uni, kind of, and it's nothing against uni, but it just makes it kind of a little bit different.
Alexandra Patel
So in your profession now, do you feel that the reflection you do as part of your job feels real?
Jenny Prescot
And yeah, so for me, it does. But other people, it wouldn't necessarily, because in my job, we still have to do reflection. So there's sort of certain criteria. But yeah, it does feel a little bit different. The other thing I found at that unit was you had to use reflective tools. Yes, which are really, really useful when you don't do reflect on your living reflection. But then you get to a stage in reflection, where you've either outgrown at all, or you need a new tool for new reflection. Or you're just so at uni, we had like the one tool, and that was a tool we used. And we had some lectures about different tools. But really, they just wanted to keep it simple. So this is at all the sort of use. And then you kind of think that that's the only tool and then you meet someone else uses a different tool. And I just did a piece of like academic reflective writing about a year just over a year ago now, and used a completely new tool, because it was meant to be masters level. He was like, you can't really use this tool. It's too basic, completely new tool, which then really was interesting, because it kind of changed how I'd what I'd been doing previously.
Alexandra Patel
And I think another elements of it when you're being assessed students are, is that, you know, if the marker is looking at that formula, that particular tool, you kind of pretty much have to use it to make sure that you're using the right terminology and making the right kind of points to get the marks. Yeah.
Tracy Dix
So I'm kind of interested when you mentioned tools, what influences which tool do you use at the given period in time? Is it you know, if the market tells you use this tool, that's the tool you use? Or is it more personnel?
Jenny Prescot
So at university, we had a tool that they recommended. Is this more like tips, feel like it was Gibbs it will be Gibbs Yeah,
Alexandra Patel
I came across some that referred to in some nursing.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. So back to health care. It's one of the better ones. And it's it is nice and simple. If you're just learning it's quite simple. I found it. It maps it randomly, I feel it overcomplicated even more simple, because some of the things are the right ones like this is like six stages. But for me some of the stages were like the same stage. I was I was kind of basically what I just said. But it was a good one. And then when I was working with students that are different, you knew they use the common with a name, but they're like, what happened. And then the so what now
Alexandra Patel
that was rough.
Jenny Prescot
And that's again, that's really nice and simple. So when you start and you do want to do it simple. I don't often use a tool now because I think how I need to reflect changes each time but when I did the academic piece back to uni, they were very much you need to have a tool because it's an academic piece. And then they literally gave a whole list of things that you shouldn't really be using because it's too simple. So all the tools that I've used in the past are like these, these are not going to give you the level of insight that you will need to get the marks for this because it was masters level. So it's one of them I can't remember which I use like general would have been battered by I had to have a little look around. So that's like actually find a book on reflective writing and look at some different ones. And I found one and I'm so sorry because I can't remember the name of it now but I found it
Alexandra Patel
I probably will pull you up for this because it sounds useful. Yeah,
Jenny Prescot
but it was just a bit more complex. And it made me reflect at a deeper level, like really trying to understand your actions, not just what you did and why. But really, why is it called?
Tracy Dix
Throwing them all out.
Jenny Prescot
But then I do, I got my marks back for that. And I thought was very strange, because I haven't been marked so long and reflective writing, I've just been like reflecting for like, over a decade, just as I needed it, you know, exploring what happened or blablablah to then be graded again, felt very strange. And again, my grade was fine. There's no problems with it. But the feedback, there was one bit where I said about trying to understand maybe why it was I'd offered to help colleague, and it was like, Why did I do this surface level was, I like to help people makes you feel nice, and then have to go down on the deeper level? So you know, think at all, why did I want to, you know, really work it out? And I thought one of the reasons was, there was a little bit of drama around this. I don't know why there was some drama had been a mistake, she needed some help. And there's a bit of a drama. I thought maybe I wanted to be involved in the drama. Maybe I wanted to, you know, or maybe I wanted it to be the about me or like, oh, you with me what happened?
You know, it wasn't some of that going on? Maybe you wrote it down. In the feedback, they just said, this is quite worrying about my reflection. So you're not meant you're not actually meant to judge my reflection. So yeah, I kind of I read that. And I thought, wow, I think you haven't done very well at marking that because you're not meant to say,
Tracy Dix
I think I'm with you on that. Because you know, you were saying about how reflection can be quite a vulnerable process, because it's very internal. It's very personal. And for them to say, oh, it's very worrying. And let's face it, like, there is an element of wanting to help people for self interest. Sometimes, you know, we don't completely do it. For the sake of mainly
Jenny Prescot
self interest.
Tracy Dix
Yeah, it's because it makes you feel good. Yeah. Or like, you know, with the be involved in a drama, it was that you wanted to be in the know, because that, you know, maybe gives you some kind of status in your department or something like that. But okay, so I just wanted to revisit a couple of things, because you were talking about role.
Alexandra Patel
So I think actually, the type of reflection you were doing with a little bit more kind of like psychology counseling. So really starting to think about what your subconscious motivations might be. So it might be that your market didn't get that at all,
Jenny Prescot
potentially, but it is strange because in the firstly, the module I was doing was a module about a type of professional support system that's been set up, where you have to support each other psychologically, and really understand, it was a bit strange, because it was very much a module on psychological support and understanding. So I hadn't gone completely left field, and then mainly in healthcare, and I don't know what the types reflective writing, but healthcare is very much on understanding yourself and how you have been led to a situation. So that you know, you know, in terms of patient safety, or effective teamwork, or human factors, or that kind of element. So that was always how I was taught in.
Alexandra Patel
Yeah, let's say that the subconscious reflection is probably something that a lot of people don't do.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. No,
Alexandra Patel
I would, I would I do, but it's.
Jenny Prescot
So I think, again, like I said, at the beginning, I it was a skill that came naturally to me, because I think I'd already done it, really. So I get confused when people don't have that element of self awareness or self understanding. And those people were you thinking, I'm having to understand you to then explain you back to you. But in a way that doesn't seem to some people it's like, you know, like a toddler. When you're trying to like, think maybe I'll be upset by this kind of thing putting out
Alexandra Patel
that Oh, I totally get
Jenny Prescot
so I yeah, I know what you mean, I think it comes naturally to you. You don't really understand why he's Why'd you have to have a process for this. It's just obvious. If it doesn't come naturally to you. You're like, I don't understand what we're doing here. Yeah, and it's one of those skills where obviously you can always get better at certain skill, but it's one of those skills where I felt some people they may never completely get it because of the level of self awareness and vulnerability the need.
Tracy Dix
It's good to make a start on it and try though process of self discovery. Oh, yeah. So Alex, earlier on, we were talking about Rolf and he will say their office probably banned for certain levels of academic writing. So I feel like we should maybe just elaborate on role and what the cycle is for that one, just If people are aware of what they should avoid within certain contexts, well, I
Alexandra Patel
think it was, as Jenny said, you know, it works at a simple level. But if you're trying to expand your critique your reflection, look at different surface level deeper level reactions to things.
Tracy Dix
So what is the cycle?
Alexandra Patel
I Think it's who, what, why or
Tracy Dix
the one that is what happens. Now what so
Alexandra Patel
yeah, okay, I can't remember exactly.
Tracy Dix
linked to a version of it in the show notes.
Jenny Prescot
That sort of what's
Alexandra Patel
what, when and how wasn't that?
Jenny Prescot
Which then confuses it? Because I just noticed three whats. What am I doing right now?
Tracy Dix
Yeah, you don't kind of drill down to a bit more detail than that. And it ends up being a very superficial reflection, I think.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. What next? People just go, I won't do that again. You want to do what again? Again? Yeah, brilliant. Okay. You sorted? Aren't you? Yeah, whenever do that again? Yeah.
Alexandra Patel
So in our last podcast, we did talk about this in more detail. And yeah, that was exactly I think we can we quite like Gibson's model, because it really focuses on having an action plan that comes out of it, you know, so how are you going to change how you do things? What training you're going to get? What are you going to read?
Tracy Dix
So something else that I thought was really interesting was how you mentioned at the beginning, about a whole module that was geared towards reflective writing, because the impression I had, so I mean, students have told us that they, you know, in certain disciplines, they have to do a lot of reflective writing. But I assume that because of what we've been told, you know, many of them come to university, and they don't know how to do academic writing in the first place. And so then, having been asked to do reflective writing feels like they're being thrown a curveball, because just as they think they've just about mastered academic writing, all of a sudden, the conventions of reflection are completely different, you know, because you can say, I, but then you have to do it a certain way, and you can't be too superficial about it. So it's almost like a merging of academic style. And the personal and I think that's what really confuses people. But I think you were at advantage, because you kind of find reflection, very natural anyway,
Jenny Prescot
I think looking back, I probably did. But I wouldn't have said that at the time. I said I was reflective or I wouldn't have said that I had that level of awareness. I think looking back, I can see that I did. And whether that was, you know whether I have to give a shout out to my mother, for raising me in that kind of way, or whether it was a certain friend or school or, you know, I don't know where I got it from, I think it's probably my mom. But it was something that I was always thinking, well, I want to just figure out what happened there or understand myself a little bit. But I wouldn't have gone into that thinking, Oh, this is these are skills I already do. I wouldn't have thought that. And even finishing uni, I wouldn't have thought that. And I think because we were made to do reflective writing, it almost brought out a part of me that I didn't know was there completely. And then over the years, I've worked hard at that. Because doing it at university, and then going into healthcare, it's made me realize how important it is to understand yourself. Because if you can understand yourself, you know what you're going to do. As simple as knowing whether, when I used to teach human factors, I used to try and get people to do a show of hands for who was a fight, flight or freeze person. And everyone would always look at me. Some people would know, some people wouldn't know, some people would have a conversation. So well, it just changed depending on the situation or you know, whether you're in a place where you feel more confident or less confident in this stuff. But I know that I'm more of a freeze person. And when you're a laborer or midwife in emergencies, freezing property isn't the best thing to do. So because I know that I do that, I then can overcome that. Yeah. And so for me, that's always actually if I understand myself more, I can do my job better. So I know if I walk into a situation, it's going to feel like a frozen, but it's only a second and I just need to take a breath and do anything can challenge you and you just need to do a thing because once you've done a thing, the next thing just flows and before you know it, you're moving and you're doing it it's fine. I only knew that because I've had to think about that and figure myself out.
Alexandra Patel
Wow, that is a serious reflection.
Jenny Prescot
So for me it's it's not only was I taught it to uni, but then became so useful at work. And I think because I've always loved labor ward, which is a little bit more high risk with emergencies with that kind of element. It's for me it's about even more needed. Whereas I could have done it union and con is just something where I didn't feel it was need, you could definitely do this at uni, that that was pointless and throw it away and never do it again.
Alexandra Patel
You could, though I have to say that I have had to reflect on my own kind of personality and character quite a bit. And I realized there are certain things that really trigger me. And I just have a huge disproportionate reaction. And it's really unhealthy. But once I've been able to kind of sit down, like you were saying and reflect on a situation, and what was really going on there, and kind of bring in a bit of theory, but this is more kind of psychoanalysis type psychodynamic therapy type theory. But then, because I've known what the trigger is, I can then avoid it. And that has been really helpful to you know, my everyday life.
Tracy Dix
Are you in a sharing mood today, Alex?, Sharing your triggers. Although before you share, I just want to pause for a moment and say that if you're finding this episode helpful today, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. So you get news of new episodes when we release them. And tell your friends about it so that you know everyone can benefit from the nuggets of information that we're sharing here. And do leave us a review as well. If you leave us an iTunes review, and send us a screenshot, we'll enter you in a prize draw for free one to one consultation with either myself or Alex.
Alexandra Patel
And that could be on anything you want almost as long as it's academic university. Really, it could be reflection, or it could be essay structure exams, dissertations, yes, we're quite
Tracy Dix
Yes, flexible. We will pick a winner each month.
Alexandra Patel
And the other thing we'd like to tell people about is, of course, if you found some of this conversation interesting, and you think, okay, I would like to work on my reflective skills. We actually have a masterclass coming up. It's a live session. So it's an online live session
Tracy Dix
on the 18th of May, from six to seven, British Summer Time, just for anyone who's listening internationally.
Alexandra Patel
And the link for more information about it will be in the bio of this, or the information for this podcast.
Tracy Dix
And if you follow us on social media, we may be releasing a special coupon code soon. So I think that's quite a lot of information now. So we come back to what we were talking about.
Alexandra Patel
So you wanted to know. So many triggers?
Tracy Dix
Are you in the mood to share your triggers?
Alexandra Patel
Well, as it happens,
Tracy Dix
well it's probably me,
Alexandra Patel
Just Tracy's presence of a trigger. One of my big triggers now is if somebody tries to make me feel guilty, or I feel like they're trying to make me feel guilty, and I go off on a complete, you know, deep end warbler, and the reason that's come about is I've had somebody in my life for a long time, who used to make me feel guilty as like a form of punishment, if we fell out, they would just go on and on and on. And it always ended. Well, it would only end if I was appropriately contrite and apologetic and in tears, and, and it was just a hugely painful experience. So that once I realized after many years that that was what was going on, through reflection, actually, I stopped letting that person do that to me. And it took a lot of effort. And that was fine. But now if I feel anybody is doing that, even on the like, slightest thing, I tend to freak out, absolutely. But now I'm thinking actually need to go back and revisit this again. Because I was in a position where I refuse to feel guilty for anything. And actually, I'm now reflecting on this and thinking maybe I should feel guilty if I do certain things. Maybe I'll turn into a you know, a psychopath if I carry on not feeling guilty about things?
Tracy Dix
Well, so we were messaging about this the other day, one way. And my take on it is maybe you don't need to feel guilty about things, but it's just more about understanding the other person's perspective. And, you know, once you know, if something is important enough to them, that it's worth you perhaps adapting your behavior or your habits, then it's kind of that's solves the issue, and then there's no need to guilt. Because I don't think that guilt is a very healthy emotion either, because it doesn't make us feel good about ourselves.
Jenny Prescot
You want empathy, instead of saying instead of feeling guilty about it just feel like how did that affect them?
Alexandra Patel
How do I help? And then how
Jenny Prescot
can I how can I make that better? Or can I even make that better? Yeah, sometimes it's a trigger is one of their triggers and walking around with our triggers. Then when you want to have good relationships, personal and professional, you have to figure out their triggers. Yeah. Like I used to know which of my colleagues were hungry colleagues
Everyone knows one, when they're like that, you know, actually, instead of having a disagreement with them,
Alexandra Patel
give them food,
Jenny Prescot
actually, let's have food,
Tracy Dix
and then you'll be their best friend for life?.
Jenny Prescot
And when I used to one of my roles was being like the senior midwife on labor, wordskeeper coordinating people set them up for their breaks that kind of stuff. And you'd see somebody and you think you need a break? And they say, No, no, I'm fine, I'll go in a bit. And you'd have to say, you need a break. And then they'd come back, and they'd be lovely, because I've had that break in the data. So you know, part of reflection, obviously, the the initial parts is understanding yourself and how you act within the world. But when you can understand yourself more, you can then use all of those skills to look at somebody else and think, what are the reasons you might be acting? How you're acting? Yeah. And normally, you know, you go into your basics of like, and they feel defensive, or they're scared, or they're a bit hungry, or they're tired, or ill, or you know, that all three of these basic basic ones. And normally one of those will fix most of it. Yeah, not completely. But yeah,
Tracy Dix
sometimes it's, you know, people feel like they've been undermined or they feel unimportant, I think that can be a big one. But at the same time, many people are unaware that that is happening to them. So that's, I would say, that's a very interesting one. And I've been talking to a lot of people about these kinds of triggers. And the recurring theme that keeps coming back to me is, it can depend on how, you know, like, how we were raised our experiences from birth till the age of seven very much characterizes our sense of self and our sense of the world as adults. Because Jenny, you were talking about your mom, and how, you know, she encouraged you to be very reflective, naturally, to the point where you went to university, I don't even think it was a thing. And then all of a sudden, you have to follow these frameworks and these tools, and you're just like, what, it's so contrived.
Jenny Prescot
I don't remember teaching me but I just assume it would have been her.
Tracy Dix
It was just, it was just your way of seeing the world because she didn't say Now let's apply kids to what happens. When you are.
Alexandra Patel
Although Tracy, I am now about to head over and have a look at my daughter, she's nine.
Tracy Dix
So you know, and it's like, you kind of work these conversations into your relationship, but you don't necessarily apply a framework to it, it's academia that makes you need frameworks, because you need a reference list or bibliography.
Jenny Prescot
Because actually, reflection is such a, as you might be able to tell from a conversation, it's such a Wofully process, you could go off on tangents, you could think of this, you can do that. So you do need, like I do understand why in academic work, you need that structure and that framework. And then with the recent academic work I've done on reflection, and you had to say the bit about you, but also the evidence that came in, but also this and reference that. So you really need that framework, otherwise, you're gonna end up where you've had a really useful experience for you. But the person reading it is like, well, what sort of trip were you on here? Because it's just it's so out there. So it's kind of it's it's a weird one where I feel like when you're academically reflecting, there might be that bit where you have just got a bit of paper, or you're just having a conversation with a friend. And you're in that really messy bit. Yeah. And then you use the tool, you don't have to start with the tool and work your steps through it, you can just have that messy bit of that messy conversation that messy brainstorm, yeah. And then start using the tool to give that give a little bit more structure. Yeah. And then the tool might also bring some other stuff out that you haven't completely considered because you've got so focused on one aspect, you'd missed another aspect. So it's kind of like it's trying to bring the two together.
Tracy Dix
And I think in a way, it's about making your reflection because it's going to be assessed. It's about making it into something coherent for your marker, so they don't have to wade through your stream of consciousness and go, What is going on? Yeah. Wait, hang on. So you said something about, you know, wanting to get involved in the drama, because it was like, it gave you a sense of power. Wait, do I have to like report that or something? Oh, no, it's fine. Because now you're reflecting on it. And you're realizing why you're doing it. And you're kind of regulating yourself, like your own behavior. So it's like, Oh, it's fine. Now.
Jenny Prescot
I do. I think I've always been told that I am particularly honest. And sometimes people will say that in a way where you're not really sure whether they're complimenting you, because they'll say that you're very open, or you're quite honest,
Tracy Dix
that you've been called below him, but I would say so as someone who's known you a while Sorry to interrupt. I would say it's definitely in a good way. But I think it can depend on people. So I like to have open honest conversations and I don't really Like, you know, like not knowing how someone's feeling because I think it's not very productive. But over the years, I've become aware that, you know, perhaps, depending on how people are raised or whatever, some people when you are having a discussion with them, and you might disagree about things, not in an angry sort of way, they see that as confrontation, which I find very interesting.
Alexandra Patel
So me, I do this, certainly.
Tracy Dix
And maybe that's where the guilt comes from, when actually people are just wanting to kind of negotiate things a little bit and get to the bottom of something that's come between you.
Alexandra Patel
Yeah, so you were saying about that activity? What was it fight flight freeze. So which do you think you areTracy?
Tracy Dix
I am a freeze initially, just thinking. But then if I have to, I would fight and flight. It depends on the context. But I have a story about this, I have two stories about being in threatening situation. I was driving over a little bridge. So it was a single lane bridge on one day, and my 18 month old was in the backseat traveling to himself and reading his book. And I was on the way to some friends. And on the bridge. So it was just based just for one car. Another car came from the opposite direction, not stopping there was traffic light control, but they didn't stop because they were being chased by the police. And so I stopped on a bridge do not crash into them, they stopped, we kind of locked eyes. And I panicked, and I didn't know what to do. And I just thought, okay, Ross in the backseat, what if because I'm blocking their way they get out their car and come in, like start attacking me. So I kind of panicked, so that was a freeze. And I would say the next bit I definitely didn't want to fight in this situation, because there were two of them. So I reversed my car, and let them get away and let the police do their thing. And I just kind of cleared myself from that situation. I think I should mention the other one just very quickly, okay.
Alexandra Patel
We have a fight someone,
Tracy Dix
I don't have fight. I stick on myself. Okay, so I was walking to work one day, and there was a chat sitting on the fence. And as I walked past, he said, Oh, do you know I can find a toilet. And I kind of waffled something because I didn't really know in the moment. So I pointed him like towards the church. And so try those places. And then I went off on my merry way. And I could sense His presence behind me. So I knew he was following me. And I kind of panicked a little bit, but I just kept, you know, you kind of keep going, you don't want to show that you're afraid. But then as I could sense that he got closer and closer, I knew I had to do something. So I turned around and just said, You're not gonna find a toilet here. And I could see that was the right thing to do. Because immediately he became quite cold. And he looked away from me, like he broke eye contact. So I knew that was the right thing. And so I pointed him to the train station and said, try the train station. And I think because he'd been told and because he'd been challenged he, he followed my instructions. And then I laid it in the opposite direction. So I would say that was a combination of did I freeze, I didn't freeze, but I was kind of walking and freezing at the same time. And then fought, but not with fists, or you know, but just challenged him and then laid it. So it does depend on the situation. And for me, I do all three.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah, I think for most people, it would, I wouldn't be fighting anyone. But now I know if I was at work, it would be more of a fight thing, because I haven't run away. I've stayed there and I've sorted out the danger is right in front of my face.
Tracy Dix
If the baby's in distress you you're not gonna freeze are you? or you are like you say you kind of what is it like,
Jenny Prescot
you might freeze for a second flight, you would never fly out of the room. So like, obviously fights not quite the right thing. But it means action in a way. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it Yeah, it definitely depends on it. But you need to understand yourself a little bit to know, if you put me in this situation, I could probably predict what I'm going to do.
Tracy Dix
Now you can because you've done the reflection.
Jenny Prescot
And so like you say it changed the situation. Hopefully if your understanding of yourself, you should be able to give a relatively good prediction. And obviously it might change on things like have you have a drink and you're feeling a little bit more competent. Have you not slept at all and you're just feeling extra fragile, and so on. And you said one thing and you've run away crying and you know, so there's lots of other things going on. But it's just knowing yourself and thinking actually, I know I ran away that and it is because x y and Zed Yeah.
Tracy Dix
So I have to say like so there's understanding of the fight flight and freeze is really valuable because I still know a lot of adults who are not aware when they're hungry and tired. And you still have to almost help them emotionally right to lead the way you might for children. So it's definitely a very valuable journey of self awareness. And the thing is off, you have to confront this fight, flight and freeze, usually in a crisis situation. But at the same time, I kind of think you don't really want to be put on the spot in a crisis situation. So it's actually really valuable to have thought about it. And kind of, you know, you gain that awareness of yourself and how you behave in lots of different scenarios. So you can make better, more kind of calculated, yeah, you can make better decisions when a crisis situation does hit.
Jenny Prescot
And also you can you see things with a bit more of an openness, when you don't understand yourself a bit like you were saying, earlier, Alex, like someone tries to make you feel guilty, and you just have a response. And because they're also closely linked together, you can't see this different aspects of it at all. But after reflection, you can see the different aspects of saying actually, it's this and I respond like that. So then you can, like you say, you can avoid a situation or, but when you kind of get to those levels, sometimes you can see the thing that's happening, and because you're so aware of what that thing is and how you respond. You don't even respond to it. Because you catch it early. You see the thing it's coming towards you go, Oh, I know that thing. It makes me feel like this. And you know, not today else. Yeah, so I like from working with different colleagues. I've always got a reputation for being very calm. I wouldn't say that I feel calm. But I know it is so important. I need to look calm. Because especially when I was like, in the senior role is like you can't ever see me flapping. Because I've worked with seen as you flap and it really panics you Yeah. And then if you're with a woman or like a patient, and they can see that you're flapping, oh, my goodness, like for them when you speak to them afterwards. And I had a incident recently where I did, I was scared. Because I was just in a new place with new people with new stuff. I thought I know what I need to do. But I don't know what I need to do here. And her partner saw that. And it was only for a second. Because then we got on with it. And we sorted all afterwards. He said, I just looked at you and I saw your face and and I got so worried. And I knew that I not because that because I'd felt it at the time. I knew exactly what I was feeling. I knew exactly what I was feeling it and I was like, like deep breath get on, you do know what you're doing? No panicking. But he saw that, that moment initial panic. And for him that pretty scared him.
Alexandra Patel
But you're not carried on with that expression.
Jenny Prescot
But you know, it's kind of it's one of those words, because I reflected and then I've been back in that situation and then reflect again back and you know, you're on this continuous cycle. I know now that I can walk into certain things and make other people feel reassured. Yeah, if they feel reassured though, they're much better at what they're doing. And they can think straight. So tied up with added a really interesting course a few years ago on human factors. And then as part of my education role used to teach quite a lot of human factors.
Alexandra Patel
So what do you mean by human factors?
Jenny Prescot
So human factors is like a big old bus in quite a few industries now, but one of them is healthcare. So it came from it didn't come from it originally came from an aviation. And it's all about, you know, you've had a bad outcome, you really need to understand what went wrong. Not just blame a person, but actually really what went wrong. Because unless you can figure that out, you're not going to stop it. Yeah. So then obviously, healthcare is a weird one way aviation. So yeah, aviation, you'll have big things and they're in the papers. And, you know, like, a plane goes down and few 100 people are injured or die or everywhere. So when their stuff happens, it's very, very rare, but it is very sensationalized. Yeah. And then you come into healthcare, where it's actually not that rare. Like, we will have much more bad outcomes in the entire healthcare system in the UK in one day, because of the numbers and the quantities and everything,
Alexandra Patel
it happens you know, there because things are already at work.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. And then we had for quite a long time, there was quite a culture of blame culture. And then obviously, safety wasn't improving just by working people apparently. Yeah, so because safety didn't improve. They were thinking, what are we doing this wrong? And that's where they kind of it came through, but it's in loads of different industries.
Alexandra Patel
You know, it's interesting, I did psychology as part of my degree. And one of my professors was Professor Jim reason, great name, and this was his area. So if you've ever come across the trajectory of errors, being thought of like Swiss cheese, the whole he goes with that.
Jenny Prescot
does he. How can one love the Swiss cheese model for a while. I think it's gone out a little bit. And it's this Swiss cheese model.
Alexandra Patel
So if you imagine maybe you've got 10 slices of Swiss cheese, and they've all got holes in in different places. If those holes line up, it creates a route through, you know, an error happens.
Tracy Dix
So it's a cumulative effect that makes sense, like, devastating.
Jenny Prescot
Well, it's not maybe even that is just like, was there a process error? Was there a human error? Was there a drug error, all of this stuff along the way? You think actually, that one bit, it could have been caught by that process? That it didn't do the process? Or that person could have caught it. But they were working their fifth shift in a row with no break? So you work down the layers, and each state? How did it get through this extra safety net? Yeah. And sometimes, you know, it, it just did, but sometimes you can really see the reasons why each safety net failed, and then failed again. And that failed again.
Tracy Dix
Because yeah, so generally speaking, you know, when something really bad happens, it's usually accumulation of errors, isn't it? So I mean, if you're thinking about, say, for example, road accidents,
Alexandra Patel
it's just coincidences that align in certain way.
Tracy Dix
Yeah, because you know, people make little mistakes all the time. But most of the time, like isolated little mistakes, you can get away with it. So for example, if one person drives makes a silly decision on the road, you get away with it, because other people are watching out, it's more when you have multiple factors, like you know, parked cars, so it's narrower, someone makes a silly mistake, someone else isn't looking. And then we have collision. So it's kinda like,
Jenny Prescot
yeah, and this is what I saying about, it's actually something that you see just in all industries, like it's not at all aviation came up with, it's not all healthcare, like, everywhere, who's got their own version of it? Yeah. But in healthcare, it really has been pushed to the forefront of how we manage, and kind of poor outcomes, or how we would manage systems or what we would do in terms of staff management. And it's trying to just be really smart, if we really, really want to do the best we can and really elevate patient safety and quality of what we're doing. We need to understand what's going on. Yeah. But I'd say that is within the last decade really taking momentum. Because when I first started training, it was still in that blame fitting culture, there was still it was very hierarchical. If that person said it, that person, you just do what that person says. It's not about actually routine, let's have those conversations. So there's been a big, big culture change. Which obviously, then I University have been asked to reflective, right. And then you get into this system, which is slowly changing, changing its culture, to try and be more reflective as a system as well, like not just individually. But as a team lecture, we do a team reflection, which is obviously a team debrief, but it's basically a reflection. And so we do kind of like an incident review afterwards, which is again, a reflection of all our processes and what has happened to you, and how can we figure it out. So you can see how, although we've named them different things, and put them into categories, they're actually just all merging around all together really messy, just in all kinds of using loads of different tools to understand what happened there.
Tracy Dix
Yeah, it is, I like that kind of human factor thing, because I like how it treats, you know, reflection as a kind of collective process rather than an individual one. And the move away from that blame culture. And I think this aligns with group working as well. Because I think the reason that students do hate it is because they're expecting everyone in the group to do exactly the same tasks and pull an equal amount of weight. And when they don't, that leads to resentment. But as you said, you know, some you're gonna get days, you know, in a team, people have off days, people have certain strengths. And you really want in order to kind of, I suppose up to that optimize performance, you want people to be kind of working to their strengths, but also people have off days, sometimes, you know, someone might show up to work and if not slept for whatever reason, or they might just be having a bad day. But all of that can be overcome. If teams just kind of step in and fill in for each other. You know, and one day, you when you're having a good day, you kind of fill in for someone else. When you're having a bad day other people come in and sort of fill in for you. And I think it's about kind of understanding that, you know, departments are sufficiently well enough resource to be able to do that in the first place. Because like you were saying, and it's pretty endemic in midwifery, isn't it to be working like 12, 13 hour shifts, sometimes longer and people can't make good decisions when they're that overworked and within haven't been to the toilet, haven't eaten
Jenny Prescot
And there's two things I'd say following up from that. One is in the real world. And managers exist in a university. Like when you have somebody
Alexandra Patel
you will be surprised now, wow,
Jenny Prescot
I know they do. But I always kind of think, you know, when you're doing that group project, and somebody is not pulling out a and you have to apparently work as a team and have those conversations and address it, you know, in the real world, you don't have to just go to the manager and say, they are really just not doing it. And they give them informed what we don't put, you know, they get performance manager, it's not your issue was a student, apparently, you have to be able to manage yourself, manage others work well as a team be effective as a team, but equally as it is, it's not quite the same in the real books in the real world, there's normally a cop out.
Tracy Dix
I suppose if you're that kind of student who's a bit more driven, taking the lead does mean you get that kind of experience of leadership.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah, potentially. The other thing I would say about that kind of that working as a team and caring each other some days and caring other people are the days, I do find that reflection really helps on that. Because when I've had those days where I've needed to be carried, I know that and I can walk in, and I can say to the people I'm working with, I'm not going to be very good today. And I've had it before where either like I'm just I've slept really badly. Or I remember one time at work, my little cat had gone into the vets and the vets are like phoned up saying, oh, basically, we didn't get to put her down. And I was like, and I was like, on the long day coordinating and took the phone call went back. And I was like, You're right. And I just kind of said to them like, this is happening at home. So I'm my brain is like not really working today. So then everyone knew they were like, right, Jenny's. And again, if you can have that awareness, I always, and this is what we're saying early about, people say I'm very open, I'm not open to about them. I'm open about myself. Because other people either don't have that awareness, or they're a bit too, they're not confident enough to be that vulnerable. But I am more than confident to say, this is how I work. And I'll do it in professional and impersonal to say, right now this this, and this is making me feel like this, this and this. So you should probably do this, this and this. And I feel like that's for me. Anyway, I think that's super helpful. Because I'm like, Oh, I'm literally giving you a little guide on how to be with Jenny right now. You know, like, and sometimes it is like, with my partner, I'd be like, I'm not feeling my best. I'm really tired. Especially like now I'm quite heavily pregnant. I feel a bit hormonal today. And I feel like I could cry quite easily. So just, you know, I think you just need to say really nice things to me all day. And you'll be okay. And then like, you know, a second later or say something this is like slightly kind of like, so nice. Yeah, like, oh, did you mean to do that or something like that? To say I said, Yeah. I told you exactly what to do, and you still decided. But again, that's one of the things that can be really useful. That reflection is not just that understanding of yourself is that if you understand yourself, you can give people little cheat sheets on you.
Alexandra Patel
I'm learning a lot of
Tracy Dix
great teaching,
Jenny Prescot
I'm gonna have to do this with this isn't like because if you do have those triggers, you can say to somebody have to say that I'm really sorry, that's just something that I know I have a bit of a bigger response to because of like stuff that's happened in the past. And you've told them they have and that to try and figure out what happened with you or try and understand you. You've told them about you. It is always frustrating when you meet the people that don't do it back, though. Because you're like,
Tracy Dix
yeah, no teaching. Yeah,
Jenny Prescot
I remember having it kind of recently at work where we, you know, we weren't quite gelling, and we sat down, we tried to figure it out. And again, I felt I was really open about it. I was like, I think probably, you know, this is something that's new to me, and I can see that maybe I'm being a little bit defensive. Because I just feel a bit like, I don't feel confident this area. And I think that it's coming out in these things ways, blah, blah, blah. And then I was waiting for them to say like, you know, basically why they had not been good in this working relationship. Like, okay, you go then that sometimes, like when you are being open someone else's, and you feel like, yeah, you're like, oh, and then if you've been open in terms of saying like, I'm happy to accept responsibility for these aspects. And you feel like they should probably accept some responsibility too. And then they don't, well, it wasn't all my fault. Then and then you have to like go away and reflect and be like, Hmm, so that didn't go very well because actually, I was hot kind of hoping that they would like to say such as, you know, because obviously I left that conversation thinking it wasn't productive. And I was thinking well, why wasn't it productive? Like for me what would have productive meant? And then that to be honest to say would have meant them owning a responsibility. And I was like, well, that's, that's, that's someone else's, I can't influence that. So I went into that conversation with the wrong. Like,
Tracy Dix
I don't think I don't think it was wrong. It's just that not everyone is ready to be vulnerable. And in a professional setting, you know, we've come from, like, a background of you need to have your professional like face on, you're not allowed to be vulnerable, like, nobody cares about what's happening with your cat, and you just have to, you know, put your suit on and put your brave face on and that kind of thing. So I don't think everyone is ready for it yet. But I think the more people are willing to get vulnerable and share and you might not have it reciprocated now, but I think it's, it takes time. And then one day, they might come around to your way of thinking,
Jenny Prescot
Yeah, I've always kind of, I've always had an awareness, if I'm in a certain role, then I need to, like set a certain example. Because you want to be there. But at the same time, it can be hard, because I'm not saying health gets moved away from blame, because it hasn't. So when stuff really goes wrong, you'll go straight back to your natural instincts of like, it wasn't my fault.
Tracy Dix
It's me the consequences are really serious. Yeah.
Jenny Prescot
So I can't pretend if I'm sat on my own doing a personal reflection at home after an event, I can be pretty honest, and really trying to figure out what happened for me. But then a factor or a statement on it. Yeah, because that would be very different from what I just figured out. And if I actually then go to a certain review of it, that'd be very different. So I'm not saying that I have the confidence just to be completely open when the stakes are that high.
Alexandra Patel
There's a system that's looking
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. And if Yeah, if there are going to be serious consequences. And this kind of sounds like I'm trying to clear that up, though, which I'm absolutely not
Tracy Dix
need to bring this up. But you
Jenny Prescot
just you have that fear of like, and for me, I can understand that I don't have that fear in, in situations where I don't feel there's going to be a big consequence. Whereas for some people, they will have that fear, because any situation will feel like a big consequence. That can't be Yeah, even admit it to a friend or a partner. Like there's a part of their brain and they may not may not consciously see it. There's a part of our brain that just can't even go there.
Alexandra Patel
So any advice for students practicing reflection? Because I mean, there's that doctor who had
Jenny Prescot
noises. Start again.
Alexandra Patel
So there was a doctor, I believe in the news, who they used some of her reflections on an incident that had happened in court, I think, or
Tracy Dix
and she was struck off, wasn't she? She might that was a few years ago. Yeah. And they used I think she kind of admitted liability for some things that had happened. And that was used as evidence against her and led to her being struck off.
Jenny Prescot
What was the case?
Tracy Dix
I believe that
Jenny Prescot
patients are this uproar about this generally, because it was one of those where it's like, we're no longer blaming, and we want to know about human factors and understand the process. And then this thing happened, like it's your fault struck off. You know, it's a massive backlash between a lot of health professionals because we're like, oh, sorry, we were trying to be open. We were trying to say we're actually really what what made this happen? Because it's so rare that it's because even if there is a person, to be fair, it's really rare that you've just got somebody going around doing terrible stuff. Even if you have got a person who's incompetent or malicious. There should be other things in place to stop them. You can't just blame the incompetent, incompetent person. You're like, Well, I'm sorry, how did the incompetent person get to be with a patient? Yeah,
Tracy Dix
how do they qualify like,
Jenny Prescot
yeah, exactly. How do they get through the unit? How do we get to the annual reviews? How are they on shift? How they're not being managed? How are they're not processed and stuff? Like it's just one of those fields side basic? Oh, is there for the malicious ones as well, when people are going around doing malicious stuff in healthcare again, you're like, sorry, that How did they manage to do those things? There must have been warning signs, because yeah, what are the are the processes in place? So I do remember that case, because there was a lot of backlash to it to say, because there was so many other things going on with her on that day. And she did admit to like, I think maybe she's got the wrong identification. Yeah, yeah. But because they changed all the rooms around. So she'd seen them earlier in the day and then they change the rooms, I think something like that. So again, it wasn't her being caught out. So very easily. So when you read through everything that happened, I just always thinking thinking she was doing pretty well, you know? Yeah, it was like her first day back after maternity leave of not doing anything for a year with no induction without access to certain systems without having colleagues that could help her without being with too much workload with patients that were actually being moved to different places. And she made one mistake of identification, which was rectified very quickly. And they did say at the time that did not influence the outcome. Yeah, and obviously, I don't really know, I don't really know all the details. I just know that it was very complex. And then just to feel it come back saying you're struck off, it felt like they just really, like we adopted it back to the basic like,
Alexandra Patel
who's to blame?
Tracy Dix
Maybe they were looking for a scapegoat.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. And you're like, come on, I thought I thought you were telling us to not do this.
Tracy Dix
Well, and that's, I think this this agenda issue at play here as well, because
Alexandra Patel
something racist or potentially,
Tracy Dix
maybe race? Yeah, because I think women do tend to take responsibility for things more than blame themselves more for things.
Jenny Prescot
And I think we're a bit more open, more emotional. And I don't think that's anything to do with biology. It's definitely like a cultural thing, that women would sit down and have these conversations, and maybe men are just getting used to sit down and having conversations. Yeah. So yeah, I think women are much more likely to accept blame that isn't theirs. Yeah, because for years and years and years, I've had to be a bit more open about what maybe went wrong, because they're trying to understand things. Yeah, you know, to have those vulnerabilities.
Tracy Dix
Alex was nodding very vigorously, then.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah. There was a lot of anger about that in the medical community.
Alexandra Patel
Yeah. So would you what would you advise them students to do when they're writing professional reflections, because obviously, we want them to reflect and improve their practice, but not leave themselves open to, you know, getting in trouble for a genuine reflection.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah, I mean, you've always got to think about who your audience is. So I know that if I'm sitting at home with a scrap of paper and doing a bit of a reflection, it just doesn't happen like often. But if I have had something that I don't feel like understood, or it's buzzing around my brain, or I just can't stop thinking about certain stuff, I was like, right, I need to get this out of my head. And I'll do real simple reflection. And the only purpose of that is to try and figure out what my head is telling me. And then when I figure that out, I can do a better job. No one's reading that. It's going nowhere, I could throw it in the bin. Like, I don't need to worry about anything that said there, because it is just my process. But if you're doing a reflection for your governing body, or if you're doing a reflection as part of an incident review, and then I'm not saying to change, how you're doing it, but have that awareness of who's reading it. And depending on how well they know, depending on how well your writing explains that often depending on how when you referenced it, is going to really change what they think. Because if you say it's very open, but you can reference some really good background, so this is how humans behave. They can't really pull you up or judge you on it. Because actually, there's academic to say you've behaved exactly how humans behave because you're a human. But if you're just really honest, without any reference, then you think, Oh, God, that's not great. And you have to something that I've always struggled with, as you've probably seen from the conversation, is I am very open and reflective, and most people are not. So I know that I'm always going to be a level that I probably have to pull back a little bit. Because other people are like, whoa, God I didn't realize, you know, that was such an issue when it isn't really like saying earlier about this drama. I'm not actually that fussed about drama. I'd quite like a quiet night. Yeah, I'm not into that a bit was like, let's really, really, really understand myself. Yeah,
Alexandra Patel
yeah. Not hanging around crime scenes. Yeah, a bit of excitement.
Jenny Prescot
I was just like whispering semester said this about you. And so, you know, creating that drama. But yeah, definitely think about your audience. And definitely think about how well you've explained it. Because if you haven't explained it well, or referenced it, well, it could just, it's a bit like we all know saying something in a conversation versus an email versus text. That kind of message given message received. It may not be the same.
Alexandra Patel
Yeah. And when you talk about emotions, and remembering an event that's happened as well. Yeah. Yeah, those are the things that people often misinterpret. Yeah.
Jenny Prescot
You know, when I say like, oh, just froze. I wasn't sat there for five minutes. Like it's like milliseconds, but I just, it feels long. So yeah, if you just write down you froze, somebody can tell cuz I'm thinking like, No, you're not very competent, are you then they're bleeding out and you're just sat there going, Oh God, what should I do? What should I do?
Tracy Dix
So I suppose it's about being a little more nuanced about what kind of freezing. So you might say something like, Okay, so the freeze part of my response is, it took me a couple of seconds to process what was happening, because a couple of seconds is not a disaster. And if it helps you clarify what the next step is, that's better than just reacting. And, you know, yeah, just making the wrong decision. Because you've been too hasty maybe.
Jenny Prescot
Yeah, I guess like in anything, if you've got a trusted person that will read your work? It's going to be fun, because I'll read it thinking. That doesn't make sense. If they know you. Does that. Yeah. Because they'll pull out a little something else, you just did that? I had? No, no, no, I didn't, I didn't do that. So again, if you got somebody that will read your work, they can always say something obvious. But it's just really hard. Because you don't want to, if you're reflecting in a defensive way, you're not going to reflect. Yeah, yeah. So it's really frustrating. Because to reflect, you just have to be so vulnerable, that maybe it's one of those where you do your first reflection for you. You get to get all the benefits of learning from it, and figuring yourself out and really understand the situation and your response to others, yourself, everything like that. And then you pull out a few of the details that you think would actually, you could reference, you know, you think, Oh, actually, there's, there's a bit of evidence around that I can actually make that into an academic bit. And the bits that you feel relevant, and you're happy to share. So it's almost like with anything else with any other academic piece you're doing your first draft is one thing, and then what comes through? Do you find the difference? So you can have a messy first draft that is really, really open? And then you can send them?
Alexandra Patel
Yeah, it's censoring. I think it's kind of going back through, like, say, with the evidence, but also being critical about how you have talked about this, whatever it happens and your response to it. So it might be being critical in terms of does this explain it effectively? Or do I need to add more detail? Or am I actually being a bit too harsh on myself here? You know, but going back over that initial reflection, and I don't want to say tidying,
Tracy Dix
It's kind of giving it a bit of structure. And like Jenny was saying, thinking about who your audience is, who's going to read it? How are they going to view it? What do they care about? You know, is it going to feed into, you know, whatever processes reflections are for?
Jenny Prescot
Do they need to know your deepest darkest fears? Or triggers? Or? scrap of paper? Yeah, like, it's good for you to know that, but maybe they don't really need to know that they just need to know, like, you know, a different Yeah, not a different version. But exactly. As you said, I
Tracy Dix
will prefer a slightly more professional, like how it relates to your work and how it relates to human factors the department you work for, and stuff like that.
Jenny Prescot
No, it's it depends how deep you went. Because if you're somebody who can't really reflect well, on your very superficial, your deep layer, probably all of that needs to go into your eyesight. If you really, really deep than probably like, none of that should go in your essay. Depends on what you are.
Tracy Dix
So so I don't know if our listeners can hear the footsteps in the hallway, because the kids are home now. So you might hear that background noise. But as you were talking about, you know, people being prepared to share or not, you got me thinking whether or not people are willing to get vulnerable properly depends on how adults responded to that as when they were children. Because if you did wrong, and you were always being told off for it, you're not going to make you know, even as an adult, you're not going to want to admit to doing something wrong, right? Because of those memories. So I just wanted to throw that in, you know, as part of a reflection on you know, why people may perhaps feel uncomfortable about reflective work compared to others,
Jenny Prescot
you know, I mean, I literally have that in my notes of like, Why was I good at reflection, and the list of those things? Which exactly as you said, I've always had the option to to be wrong and not to be
Tracy Dix
to make mistakes and yeah,
Jenny Prescot
I mean, I remember as a kid, I used to, I used to really, I mean, I still do it with an adult, a really like winding up my little sister. She's really fun to wind up like, just do a tiny little thing and she like explodes and stuff so it's just like so fun. So you do that and then mom or dad, they come in what's happened to you what's happened to you? And I would always straightaway say that I'd done wrong. I'd say I was winding up again. Like always. There has been never say that they will just look and there's like you know not to do that. It might be fair, my dad to say, I know it's fun, Jenny
you know, little things like that, obviously, absolutely sounds spoiled. But I do know that my parents have always liked or had that family background where it was, it was really loving, like, I can rhyme a little strip, and then we'd be playing like a few minutes later, or like, parents would tell you off, and the only time they ever told me off. I don't think I've ever noticed him want to but the only times they were told me off, I was so upset because I'd upset them. Not because I've been told off but because I'd upset them. Let them down. Yeah, so it's kind of it was one of those where I always I knew that. Reflecting as an adult, I've had a very confident upbringing where people have always said always said, like, a nice thing about me, or they believed in my ability. So it's one of those when we were talking a little bit about early work, we're about like your different privileges. But whenever I've made a mistake, no one's seen it as Jenny is a bad person. Yeah, they still see me as Oh, Jenny's lovely, and she's nice. And she's there to do that. And she made a mistake. But my mistake doesn't define me. Yeah. Whereas if everyone always thinks a bad thing of you, your mistake then defines you that oh, well, I knew you were rubbish. Anyway, I needed that. Like, so I get to be open about it. Because I get to distance myself from a thing. And I get to then rationalize it and say, Oh, well, it wasn't Jenny that did that. It was tired. Jenny
Tracy Dix
Jenny is not having the best. Yeah.
Jenny Prescot
And because I'm like, I've been to university and you know, like, did my masters work? I can rationalize, and I can be open that I, somebody couldn't use that against me. Because I could then say, I could defend myself quite well. Or I could talk about it quite well, with somebody who's less educated or eloquent any of those things. They would say thing and people Oh, you're, you're admitting just doing rubbish, aren't you? So it's not an equal. And it's really interesting having these conversations, because I've never appreciated before how being good at reflection is not an equal playing field. It is. Because if you're walking around with a whole load of privileges, whether that is an A loving upbringing, or, you know, just society thinks well of you, like, I'm quite a small woman, white woman, middle class, all of this stuff, but I'm not threatening. Yeah. Because if you're threatening, and then you're kind of like starting at all, look at them. And then you walk around saying I've made this mistake. Yeah. So it's interesting to think actually just reflection, it's not as easy for some people. And it's not because they're unwilling or they're unable. It's because they've been set up to be those things. Yeah.
Tracy Dix
But I think that was a very deep thought, to finish on.
Alexandra Patel
Something so. But just to say, a quick reminder that we will be running a masterclass on reflection, we can't promise to get you up to the level of Jenny here. But we will certainly begin. It takes practice, we will give you some concrete tools, which will certainly help and through practice, probably a bit of further reading and email
Tracy Dix
attorney standard in in 30 years.
Alexandra Patel
We can certainly get you past the assessments. Indeed.
Tracy Dix
Thank you, Jenny, for sharing your stories about your effective journey. I think it's been really valuable. I mean, Alex, and I definitely feel like we've learned a lot. So our listeners will as well. And we'll need to catch up on your reflections as a new mother and how they're going to be some deep reflection for the next few months.
Alexandra Patel
That's scary.
Jenny Prescot
brain capacity. Just turn into somebody that goes
Tracy Dix
we'll catch up again in a few years.
Jenny Prescot
But yeah, thanks for having me. Our pleasure.
Tracy Dix
If you found this episode helpful, do tell your friends do share, do subscribe. And if you're feeling it, please give us a wonderful review on iTunes, screenshot it, and we'll put you in a drawer for one to one consultation. Thank you so much for listening today. And until next time, take care. Bye. Thank you for listening to the weird learning podcast production team. Patricia Marie Solis and Kim Arendt.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
